If they said water was wet i wouldn't trust them now

Stewart Maxwell SNP seems to be a bit behind everyone else. Didn't most people already know that Scotland had an unhealthy track record?

Andy Kerr, your spin is very good. What you're actually saying is that alcoholism and obesity are being targeted without any actual results and that the smoking ban is having a positive impact. Can anyone tell me what evidence there is of this for actual smokers?

Comment@2 Julian, Hi dude, S&N would disagree as regards smoking bans being positive :) http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/business.cfm?id=1650682006

Scottwebb, your comment is unfortunately typical of the ignorant, complacent, cynical and smug attitudes of many modern Scots.

The facts are clear here. The average Scottish persons lifestyle is unhelathy and people are sick and dying as a result. We need to get off the couch, out of the damn Pub and into our beautiful country. We need to eat a hell of lot less processed food and seriously look at our attitude to drink.

We are so fond of comparing ourselves to England all the time. If we did it when looking at health we would see that are way behind, especially compared to the South (which we like to hate but in fact know little about), where people are fitter and healthier.

I am glad these stats have been disaggregated so we can see the real us. Which is generally not a pretty sight.

On the positive side we can, like Finland for example, turn an unhealthy nation into a healthy one. The first step however is to admit the problem.

I for one want to see a reversal of our slide into drunken mediocrity.

If anyone sounds smug and superior, your statement takes the biscuit...i on the other hand am pointing out a fact mate

The amount of jobs loses this unproven stupidity is causing will not do much to help the health of many people in the pub trade

Personally I reckon the bad health is due to air pollution from the German and Russian industrial plants. I mean that after the Chernobyl disaster we had sheep in Scotland that were radio active. Also what happened to acid rain, pollution of the North Sea etc. It could be that Scotland exists at the tail end of an airborne European chemical stream. It is obviously more politically correct to blame it on the folks that enjoy a ciggie rather than the European partners. It does not sound too sensible to me though. Still, I am just a pleb.

scottweb.co.uk # 3, I'm not sure exactly what you said to provoke that vitriolic attack from Paul # 4.

Thanks for the link, but i'm still waiting for an example of the positive impact of the smoking ban on smokers. All i've heard so far from several quarters is that ciggy sales are up. Is this true?

"On the positive side we can, like Finland for example, turn an unhealthy nation into a healthy one. "

You are having a giraffe-surely??
Finland one of the very few countries in W Europe with an even worse record of alcohol abuse than our own and one that also has an even worse record for murders-quel surprise!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-2438339,00.html

#7 Pete-strange as it may seem I have my own similar theories. Going back to Scotland/UK every so often I find it really striking that a large % of young people (especially) exhibit abnormal behaviour patterns compared to their peers in other countries ie-a ready disposition for extreme substance abuse and violence.

Re Chernobyl I have seen reports that the levels of Caesium are still high in Scotland and continue to be monitored. Is there a connection-possibly- but I believe the main culprits are alcohol abuse and dietary factors-ie too much junk food-(including additives and growth hormones in the food chain) and way too much sugar.

Reminiscent of an episode from the X files!

Anyway, Ive said what i can as i don't see me being able to get into the Scotsman much longer considering the amount of adoptions they have made to getting a comment on( you may have noticed )....so in case i am banned again, i will leave you with a brill vid thats just out in America done by a top Hollywood director thats had enough of this nonsense, its been watched by several hundred thousand already
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-43127302771752...

I meant to say ADAPTIONS, dam the keyboard :)

2. Julian

Evidence for actual smokers no - however evidence for bar staff and the like (non smoking ones anyway) show their health is improving.

4. Paul

The general consensus amoungst most health researchers is that Scotlands poor diet combined with its high numbers of smokers are the two main contributory factors to our ill health. Alcohol's not really that big a health problem, it is more of a social one, we really need to takle poor diet and smoking to see signs of improvement.

You are right that Scotlands health is far worse than England for comparable regions and this has been known for years. Deaggregatted stats have been avaliable for quite some time (just maybe not to this great a level of detail.)

7. Pete39

It could have an effect in the cancer rates but the trend for poor health in Scotland has been around since the 1950's (when smoking became widespread amoung the working classes of the time) in fact before the 1950's Scotland was one of the healthier countries in Europe. Scottish ill health is neither a certainty or unchangable. If it can be destoyed in (effectively) a generation perhaps it can be rebuilt in a generation as well? Of course attitudes across Scotland will have to change quite dramatically first.

9.+ 10. Encephalon

Alcohol abuse and murder perhaps - however they have an expemplery record in turning around their cardiovascular and heart disease problem.

You are quite right with dietry factors. However smoking is thenext biggest problem not alcohol.

I have been researching Scottish health recently and I can confirm that some deaggregation of health stats was already in place. In fact it exists to such an extent it is possible to trace Scotlands health decline (to its current point) from the 1950's. It is thought that the Scots, traditionally poor, diet coupled with an explosion in the amount of people smoking - women in particular are jointly responsible for our nations current situation.

However all is far from lost, excuse the random optimism, it took just over a generation for us to get into this mess and it could concievably take us just over a generation to get out of it. However Scotland needs to abandon smoking and convinience foods - and also needs to help people living in deprived areas gain access to health facilities, recreational facilities (sports grounds and the like) and educate or ensure healthy food is avaliable within their budgets.

If people can't afford health, or percieve that healthy eating and healthy living costs too much, they won't be able to attain good health.

#15 Keir. You hit the nail on the head with one point Keir. Many people in Scotland cannot afford to eat healthily. They can't afford things like five portions of fruit a day and similar. Despite what the fudged and fanciful statistics are for the alleged average wage in Scotland, there are many people who are earning the basic wage of £5.05 an hour, and trying to keep a family.

They have high fuel bills to pay because of the colder weather in Scotland (an average of 5 to 10 degrees lower than the south of England). They have, especially in the highlands and islands far higher costs to pay for everything, including food.

This is not helped by having to pay around 10p a litre more for fuel in these areas; nor is it helped by having what are probably the highest ferry fares in the world (from out Executive owned ferry company).

In addition, real unemployment is very high in the highlands and islands, a factor not helped by the additional transport costs.

Yes, I know, we could all leave home and move to the central belt, though that would enable the Westminster government to achieve its aims of the 1920's of completely clearing the Western Isles, and leaving it as a play park for the "landed gentry". They'd probably like to have the whole of the highlands and islands cleared for the same purpose.

Scott.

Good comments. Just one wee suggestion? Get a new keyboard buddy!!

Smoking, drunken, public-fund-supported louts, you'd only hope that natural selection would rid us of the current generation. Maybe the new blood from Poland will save the country?

Guga, it's a grand life having everyone else subsidise your island paradise. Do you think that Scotland would pay it's way better if there were fewer freeloaders?

19

Whit??? Talk about subsidising fae a fifer? What about all those electronic factories that took millions of public subs only for them to go bust or up sticks and leave, with that money?? At least whatever subs the islanders get, it stays in Scotland.

You must be fay Ballingry, benefit capital of the Kingdom.

Sheeesh........

This is great isnt it ? State the facts and people start screaming that it isnt true.

Scotland : A country in denial. Thats my working title.

In denial? Nah Bupf, Scotlands nowhere near Egypt.

Guga # 16, that's a myth and an excuse for unhealthy eating. Anybody wanting to eat healthy can do so whatever their income. You can buy your 5 portions of fruit and veg for 70p at my local shop.

I suspect the truth behind unhealthy eating is mainly a lazy culture that has built up, particularly i'm sorry to say in poorer areas, of takeaways, prepackaged meals and artificial additives.

Keir # 14, what is the evidence that bar staff's health is improving. Don't get me wrong. I believe passing smoking is probably harmful but would like to see the evidence. As for smokers, it looks like so far the ban has had no beneficial health effect contrary to what has been described by government advisors.

But Scotland is still one of the best places to live in the world!

morning dave... its wet enough , it could be.

24. if you have money , education, a soul and a love of the outdoors you are probably right.

Julian

Is your local shop Guga's or my local shop? Our food is more expensive by almost a third because it has to come by lorry then ferry. The supermarkets won't subsidise the haulage so we pay a higher price. We also use almost a third more energy to heat our homes due to the very inclemant weather, even compared to the central belt. Whilst I agree with you about the laziness attitude, there is the social economic problem of higher import costs as not every thing on the island is subsdised, like some people would believe.

And Rockall is some 400 miles west of the mainland so no wonder it's expensive food out there...............

It is Bill (when you've not got a premature terminal illness from an overindulgent lifestyle)

As an example, and please forgive me. Benefit payments are the same where you are as they are here. Minimum wage likewise. However, a pound of onions are a third more expensive in our local co-op or sommerfiled than your local co-op or sommerfield as the supermarkets are a profit organisation, so haulage is factored in. Imagine what those same onions costs in the Shetlands?

Dave # 27, I take your point but if the islands suffer from import costs then surely that puts up the price of fruit and veg as well as prepackaged meals etc. so if the poor can't afford the former they couldn't afford the latter either.

Come to think about it, don't you grow your own stuff up there? And before anybody says it, i'm not talking bananas (no pun intended).

But getting back to Guga's point that many Scots can't afford to eat healthily. What exactly does their non-healthy diet consist off that's much cheaper than the aforementioned 5 fruit and veg a day?

Sorry Dave, I have to go now. Will hopefully catch up with this one later.

Yup Julian, the price is up across the board but for some reason the prepackaged stuff price hike isn't as much as fresh fruit and veg. It may be because the prepackaged stuff lasts longer due to preservatives and therefore can be brought in bigger bulk, therefore reducing haulage per weight.

We try to grow our own, but don't you guys do that as well? After all, all grade 1 arable land is in and around the central belt, east coast and some places in the borders. We have grade 5 to 6 peat soil, little machair, salt laden winds and sever water retention, so it's not as idillic as you imagine. Perhaps a we tour of the islands for a year would show what it is like?

You have good points Julian, we do accept our diet is very poor. Catch you later mate.

Spot on Paul #4.

Scotwebb.co.uk are you some unemployed chav who sits around commenting on the Scotsman's articles all day? seems like any article I've ever looked at you've been putting in your tuppence worth. Get a real job! your consipracy theories wouldn't have been out of place on the x-files.

I think one dietary factor is due to the UK having the longest working hours in Europe - convenience. After a long day , its too easy just to throw something in the Microwave.

Greggs should have a health warning .

#35 - Thank you for saying what we all think. He (scottwebb.co.uk) really is getting tedious

Here we go again the daily slagging match.Some people are very good at posting derogatory and sarcastic comments,that,s not clever.If you want to sound like a smarty then suggest solutions that may solve the problem.

Bruce and Paul, do you guys work for the government? You are clearly both non smoking, t-total hill walkers. Now this is fine with me and I am not going to encourage you to have a drink or smoke a fag etc On the other hand however if I want to have a nice pint and a smoke I will.

Smoking bans have cost breweries and pubs stacks of money since they were introduced while at the same time cigarette sales have RISEN. There is still not any evidence to categorically prove that passive smoking is directly responsible for cancer.

Keir, I would disagree with you aswell as alcohol related illnesses/deaths are at an extremely high level. Granted there are social issues but this is Scotland, not France. The government feel that extending pub hours is the answer though so we should be fine in 20 years. No lung cancer, no alcoholism, no obesity....Happy days!

As for the figures above I wouldnt trust them as far as I could throw them. More scaremongering and spin in an attempt to further control our lives.

From what i can see Scottweb is backing up all his comments with points of reference. It is very easy for msps and newspapers to come out with stories and lead the public further into a nanny state. I think what he is saying is try to get both sides of the story. For example we are repeatedly told that the smoking ban has been a massive success?? Based on what information? Businesses are losing money and surely it is far too early to say bar staff have added 10 years to their lives? Nicorette are raking it in though!!

The peasants are revolting..........

40.
39.
Keir.

Look around for gods sake.

#39/40 come on, are you for real? next you'll be saying that climate change isn't happening. Anecdotal evidence from where I live suggests that the pubs are doing very nicely thanks since the ban. I say anecdotal because you obviously subscribe to the same conspiracy theories as scottwebb so there's no point quoting study findings to you. Its good for once that Scotland is leading the way in something with the smoking ban but it won't by itself turn us into a nation of superhealthy people. Altho' I have to say that anyone that blames poverty for the state of the nation's health is living in cloud cuckoo land. People are better off now than they ever were but unlike in times past they now find it much easier to blame someone or something else for where they are in life rather than hold up the mirror and see who's really to blame.

Julian (8)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-2405003,00.html

Sales from grocers 5 per cent up, from pubs and vending machines unchanged.

Bruce's spider

http://www.fifenow.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=1015...

Some parts of the licensed trade are not doing well ...

Surely Scotland is doing better than places like Moldova, Albania, Belarus, Ukraine and Wales.

Am no believing aw this p*sh aboot the Sick Man of Europe. It's another ploy tae keep the population sh*ting themselves!

A drap of Syrup of Figs wid be easier!

Scots emulsion as recommended but our friend Dr Frizola Mulla of Tanzania.

I repost this here because, I see this article as a continuation of yesterdays ludicrous smoking article.
"Just a thought, Have a look at these social groups
1) Negro
2) Women
3) Disabled
4) Jewish
5) Muslim
6) Catholic
7) Protestant
8) Smokers

Now what is the similarity, between them all and what is the difference between group 8 and all the rest
The similarity is that at some point in human history
all these groups have been discriminated against.
The difference is that legislation was eventually introduced to stop discrimination against groups 1 -7
but only group 8 has suffered legislation which encourages discrimination against it.
This cannot be right in supposedly free and democratic societies. It cannot be right that those who enact this legislation exempt themselves and
guests of her majesty from it. Hypocracy all the way. Stop the lies, Stop the discrimination, Stop the hate. Love freedom, and wonder whose next?"

You see the manipulation and conditioning continuing
I did not expect it so soon, and it's more than coincidence"

Now I would be the first to agree that it is not good to be unhealthy, obese, alcoholic, or a smoker.
But the point here is finding why people feel the need to be so and helping them improve where they wish to. What is happening here is the P.C. brigade
and control freaks are setting us all up to discriminate against these groups in the same way they have succeeded with smokers. and so my question is answered we now know whose next?
I am offended by the sight of obesity, I am offended by drunks, but I would never legislate against their
addiction, or discriminate against them in any way.
You can see where it goes don't you. Public spaces narrow their door width, if you can't get through, you're too fat you're not coming in here. If you are diagnosed alcoholic tou have drunk tatooed on your forehead

I remember the famous Frizola's Scots Emulsion, but I dread to think hows it's applied!!

Don't think it's painted on somehow anyway AJ!

Injected, was what I was thinking Dave!

I just got a shiver up me spine after I read your comment AJ!

Injected where???? In fact, don't answer that. I'll let Dr Frizola Mulla MsC, PhD of Tanzania tell us!

Bruce, the facts show that tobacco sales in Scotland have risen since the ban. I will stick by statement that pubs and clubs have suffered as a result. It may well be a conspiracy theory but I hardly expect those responsible for the ban to be screaming from the rooftops about all the small pubs/clubs that have been forced to close. Its very easy for people to jump on the bandwagon and unite against smokers who are a relatively easy target. Considering the fact that many are helplessly addicted to smoking. NRT has a 10% success rate yet costs more than cigarettes? There is no evidence to suggest smoking/passive smoking causes cancer any more than breathing in the exhaust of a bus or taxi. Pubs and landlords should have had a choice, smoking or no smoking, alternative options regarding ventilation etc. Instead they were dictated to by the government? Am I wrong? Like 48 said, complete discrimination. What next? Ban Alcohol? Knock down McDonalds?

I like McDonalds, I like a pint, I like smoking, I am not fat or obese, I exercise regulary 5 times a week? This is how I CHOOSE to live. Last time I checked it was my choice wasnt it?

Scotland is not "leading the way" in this initiative (unless you mean Englands Guinea Pig). Evidence already suggests that Ireland/Dublin is suffering as a result of the smoking ban.

And finally, for supposed respected health officials to come out and say that lung cancer will be gone in 20 years thanks to the smoking ban is a blatant lie.

In all Seriousness , why not force the tobacco companies to sell their largest Packets in denominations of 15.

Pyschological warfare. People rarely buy two packets a day if they smoke around 20 a day.

thats the whole point bupf. Why even bother trying to think of some sort of ruling. If someone wants to smoke let them. Let them smoke how many they want! People who smoke and are addicted to smoking will buy cigarettes whenever they run out!

23. Julian

Theres a wee device that measures the particles of smoke (parts per million I think) in someones breath. There has been a drastic reduction in this in non-smoking bar staff since the ban has come in.

36. Bupf

I would agree with that, unfortunatly Britains working practices seem to be developing more in line with America then Europe...

39. This country sucks

Statistically speaking they aren't as high as problems associated with smoking and poor diet. There is a problem but it tends to be overstated as most people traditionally view the Scots as hard drinking.

46. AJ

Scotlands health is far, far worse then Wales health I am afraid :(
To put it in global terms the Czech republic and Costa Rica have comparable mortality rates and incidence of disease to Scotland. Not very favourable comparisons when Britain is in a far better economic situation then those two countries... In the EU Portugal is the nearest to us in health terms. Similar poor diet, similarly heavy smokers.

54. Bupf

Thats a very interesting suggestion and I could see that working... Now if I can only persuade someone to give me a grant ;)

55. Hard drugs are illegal for a reason. Smoking is only legal because of historical reasons. Naturally we should do what we can to reduce the harm it causes.

I dont see how you can argue against this unless you want to buy smack in the Scotmid.

What ? You can ?!

Depends who you ask. Many of my friends are saying they are now smoking less as they can not light up in the pub and have to go outside for a drag.

For me, as a non smoker, going to the pub is a far pleasanter experience, the lack of smoke does not seem to have reduced anyone's enjoyment and my smoker pals are still as funny as they used to be.

I a just waiting for McConnell junior to be lifted by Lothian's finest for smoking in a public building - I guess it will be a long wait.

Yeh good point why dont we all buy cotton wool suits and never leave the house. I am a smoker and I am aware of the harm it causes and the risks involved. I am also aware that I could smoke all my life and live till 90 without ever getting lung cancer. I CHOOSE to smoke, dont you understand? I enjoy it very much!! That is the fundamental issue. Every man, woman and child has the right to choose! If you decide to outlaw smoking, where do you draw the line? Alcohol is a drug that causes far more deaths than ecstacy? So ban that too? Ban unhealthy foods/processed foods to prevent obesity and high cholestrol? Ban all cars and aeroplanes to stop global warming? DOnt you realise that it is not your place to tell people what to do!

No one has mentioned the ship yards or asbestos as part of the cause of Scotlands ill health. Not many people seem to know that the first filters on cigarettes was made from asbestos also cigarette paper had asbestos content so that it would not burn quicker than the tobacco. Makes you think EH?

Yeh I'm smoking less to, but I don't go to pubs a lot.
It's because I am spending to much time on here
making the case against people like you, who because
you do not perceive your freedom to have been eroded
and have got what you wanted at the expense of anothers freedom, don't think it matters. I hope that it never comes to pass that legislation happens which erodes or removes a freedom you currently have.

59 You have unwittingly alluded to a large part of what is wrong with this country. Now I am not knocking what you say, but where you say "Every man, woman and child has the right to choose! " You are as wrong as everybody else who believes that.
We have no rights in this country, because we do not have a written constitution which defines and gaurantees our rights. If we had, any law banning anything could be tested against the appropriate constitutional article and found to infringe stated rights.
That is why we smokers do not have a right to smoke, but conversly non smokers have no right to ask us not to. That is why these anti freedom contolling, banning laws are so easy for parliament to enact.

#48 and #53 I have to hand it to you guys- you are entertaining and your mastery of distorting the facts is truly impressive. Arthur #48 why bother reposting the nonsense that you posted yesterday as its a classic example of manipulation. From memory I don't recall a single example of spending an evening with either a catholic or a muslim in pre-ban times when I came in stinking of fag smoke or where the people behind the bar's health was imperilled by virtue of the fact that they were serving us. As for #53 I too like a pint and a McDonalds, do you really think you have to be a member of the green/health food eating brigade to find your arguments bogus? I'm well aware of what's happened in Dublin but in European terms Scotland is ahead of most parts of the continent. People like you guys who are happy to willingly damage the health of others in the name of freedom are the ones who need to start being honest and come out and admit just what you really are, self-interested bigots who have no interest in anyone other than yourselves.

A freedom to hurt myself is not really a freedom. Anyway no-ones stopping you from smoking/drinking/eating crap.

Well well, The manipulated attacks the counter manipulator, but offer no substantiation only insults.
Yes I am a bigot, I am bigotted against bigotry and ignorance, I am intolerant of intoleration, but howvwer I may or may not manipulate nothing I fear will break down the barrier of ignorance you hide behind, you have been indoctrinated with fear, and you fear self
expression, and freedom because you can no longer
decide for yourself. Enjoy the comfort of control.
Ignore your dwindling freedom till you have none.
Your position is indefensible which is why you resort to insult. How entertaining is that?

Oh Arthur , smoke/inject/drink away.

But is antisocial and its not good for you.

You cant deny it and you are slowly becoming a dinosaur with those attitudes. We will laugh at you on your death bed for being such a fool , I trust this is okay?

Bruce, that is complete nonsense, and if anyone should be classed as self-interested bigots it would be the government and the non smokers. How many times prior to the ban did someone force you to enter a pub where there may be smoking? My bet is never and I am fairly certain you went in on your own accord. Pubs have always been a place for smoking and drinking. Bar staff knew this and customers knew this. If you dont like it why dont YOU go outside in the cold and drink ur drink? Pubs and clubs were not given any choice in the matter, no option to install or improve ventilation systems, no option to have a smoking section etc. Why should non smokers automatically be given preference over smokers? There is still no evidence to suggest that passive smoking leads to lung cancer.

Bupf

What is socially acceptable then? Gives us a resume of what is so we can understand our restricted freedom in society.

Bupf not one of your comments has been anything other than an insult aimed at someone who does not agree with what you have been brainwashed to believe.

Your input is completely pointless. It seems to me that you have almost Nazi beliefs in that everyone who does not conform with your way of "healthy living" should be exiled from society? It doesnt quite work like that and Im sure that smoking drinking and all other such vices will outlive your prejudice dictated lifestyle.

To all the pro-junkie smoking lobby

The smoking ban is probably one of the best things any government has done for health - as well as giving back the right to fresh air to the majority it sends a very important message
- Smoking is not a good thing - it injures your health and the health of others

I hope that my children will grow viewing smokers with the same sort of disdain as my mother reserved for those who spat in the street

Julian 2

The smoking ban was put in place primarily to protect non smokers.

for the love of god.

Do i have to spell it out to you ?

I smoke , but many who dont object to me smoking near them. Out of respect for humanity - beyond any legislation the scottish parliament comes up with - i will respect their wishes as a fellow human being and not do it.

People that drink , hurt themselves and frequently others and others property. When they turn up for work the next day they cannot function properly.

What makes me a nazi here ?!

Regardless it will change whether you want to stay in denial about it or not, give up and see sense man.

Encephalon 9 - no he's not having a laugh.

Finland went from having one of the highest mortality rates in the world from heart disease but it has reduced its incidence of heart attacks by 75% since the early 1970s.

Finland and Scotland are very similar countries - we drink too much, we eat too much fatty food, we have a tendency to murder each other.

That's actually why we can learn a lot from looking at how Finland reduced deaths from heart disease so dramatically.

No worries, just let me know when the "Smokers Concentration Camps" open up and I will do the honourable thing and turn myself in.

Good man.

73,

I believe the Finnish Govt subsidise the price of fresh fruit and veg, and this alone has had a dramatic and positive effect on the health of their nation.

I'm normally pretty sceptical about these sort of announcements(Scotland - sickman of Europe etc!), but what happened in Finland is obviously a good thing.

#12

watched the vid

Oh my God!

My, my how touchy we are Arthur and This Country Sucks. Arthur #65 I'd love to respond to your comments and would if only i didn't find them so impenetrable. As to This Country well It's good of you to devote so much of your valued time to this thread this today but I'm sure that FOREST must be missing your wisdom by now so perhaps its time you should go back to where you belong and accept that your half-truths and distortions are wasted on the majority of people who realise that the smoking ban in this country is a good thing. Why should the bulk of people suffer because of the smoking minority that you guys constitute? Its people like you who are out of step, not the rest of us.

Hmm... some interesting reading in this thread. But I think it's run it's course after post 69, (and 72, 74)

Godwin's Law strikes again... happens every time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law ... et al

so true !!!

It's the fact that a small minority of smokers are totally selfish that caused many non-smokers to be ecstatic when the ban was introduced. Lets face it, no-one would give a s**t about what smokers were doing with their lives if they weren't inflicting their habit on others.

I used to work in a bar as a student. It was entirely my choice and I knew that I would be working in a smoky atmosphere. And no, I wasn't worried about contracting lung cancer from passive smoking.

What I didn't expect was the level of selfishness displayed by customers sitting at the bar all night, letting their cigarette smoke blow DIRECTLY into the faces of the bar staff, who have no escape. The rest of the pub could be completely empty, but they would still sit there. When they were chatting to their mates, instead of holding their cigarette away from the bar, they would rest it in an ashtray on the bar, inches from the beer pump.

There's a difference between a smoky atmosphere and direct, uninhaled, fresh smoke blowing right into your coupon for hours on end. And I know people will just say I should have left my job if it bothered me that much, but I needed the money - and what else can you do as a student when you need part time evening shifts than work in a pub or restaurant?

It is a shame that the tiny minority have given smokers a bad reputation for selfishness, as in my experience the majority are considerate and polite and would never smoke in a place where it might cause problems.

Unfortunately, the woman I saw letting her smoke blow into the face of a baby in a restaurant is the kind of image that tends to stick in people's minds more readily.

I notice you didnt actually answer any of my points Arthur. I have never actually said that the smoking ban was a good or a bad thing. I have merely stated that...

-Businesses have suffered as a result here and in Ireland- FACT
-Smoking does not necessarily lead to lung cancer - FACT
-Businesses or smokers were given absolutely no say/choice in the matter - FACT
-Smoking is not the only thing that can contribute to lung cancer - FACT
-there is no evidence that passive smoking leads to lung cancer - FACT
-Drinking is equally detrimental to health - FACT

None of the above are "half truths", they are FACTS. I could go on but like you say, I have already dedicated to much time to this thread.

sorry i meant bruce, not arthur

Jees I'm pleased about that TCS, I woudn't want to be
mistaken for a big hairy spider.

Have you waited 79 posts to throw that one in Trixx? If Mike Godwin said it must be true. I didnt raise the subject with the motive of ending the thread either.

Anybody seen chewing the fat-
gie,s a fag.

This country sucks,

What a clown smoking doesn't lead to lung cancer!
Aye thou you'll then just get throat,stomach, bowel
Cancer instead!.

Away and have a fag.

84.

It's such a long thread, it took most of my lunch break to get through it. I never bothered to refresh either.

In any case, it's time to bury it.

Kev, not everyone that smokes contracts cancer. Just as people who dont smoke contract cancer. What part of that statement makes me a clown?

Does smoking cause cancer , he with the nihilistic handle ?

yes , or no ?

you're right Trixx, agreement will never be reached. As Arthur said, maybe one day some of the non smokers will have a freedom taken away from them and understand that arguing about it is more than just an act of selfishness.

Anyway, I am going to go for a fag now.

Kev, Read things properly
I don't think anyone on here is saying that smoking does not cause cancer, what we are aware of is the issue of passive smoking, which no one denies happens
the dicotomy is whether or not that is a contributory factor to lung cancer. The discussion has also moved on to state control and personal freedoms or the perceived erosion thereof. Do Keep Up!

yes and no.
It is not quite as black and white as that. Many things can potentially cause cancer.

For people to come on here and say they can't afford to eat healthly is embarrising. When I was last home , the crowds outside the chip shops were extrordinary, I actually saw people arriving in taxis
and leaving with bags full of greasy , expensive food. It's pure laziness and ignorance. Has preparing your own food gone out of fashion at home? And this is the year 2006 ? Extrordinary.

Smoke and other pollutants cause asthma and allergy and dont say they dont because im living proof of it.

Fear not Billy, us dinosaurs will no longer be able to enjoy the delights of a chippy as these are sure to be banned under new legislation in the future.

So do dogs and cats noremac, shall we kill them all?

Comment@35 Bruce's spider. It MAY surprise you dude, but there ARE people out there that can source and assimilate information at a voracious rate. I'm NOT a chav as you kindly put it.....i remote clients on a global not local basis...this means i have different hours of working than you....and i multi task.
Maybe you don't appreciate my comments but in a FREE society that is my right.....and others do appreciate my comments :)

Might as well grab the 100, when naedody's lookin'

this country sucks-you dont have an argument there,thats not a good comparison.

get in there 100

GET IN

SHOITE

Strange that noremac I know an ex Seaman who smoked from his teens till he retired, his wife couldn't stand the smoke all over the house, he gave up and has been an asthmatic ever since.
I know a young girl in her teens who has either an asthma attack or a mild epilectic fit every time she does not get her own way.

Q. Does Smoking cause cancer ?

A.
yes and no.
It is not quite as black and white as that. Many things can potentially cause cancer.

I think you will find the answer is yes.

to Arthur@48 and all subsequent postings

in your list of those who have been sanctioned against, there is a difference between the first 7 and the last. The first 7 do not affect my health...they were discriminated against because of the the "sensibilities" of the times...ignorance mostly. The last one DOES affect my health and the health of those around me. And I know this because I have watched the effects within my own family. In Canada the push to educate the public regarding the effects of smoking has been going on for years, the bans started being implimented a few years ago and are ever increasing.

When my children were young and I smoked in the house, in the car, in where ever, they had constant resporatory issues, some quite severe. When the connection between the two was discovered, I stopped smoking in contained areas where they were present, and poof, NOT a single resporatory issue returned...not one. I have six children and the odds of all of their issues stopping at exactly the same time for any other reason are astronomical.

I will not die if I can't have a smoke in one hand and a draft in the other...I will not die if I have to leave my draft in the care of my mates to go out for a puff. It has curbed my smoking drastically, and hey, what a surprise, I also feel better, more energy, don't get winded so easily, and can get through almost an entire game of foot ball before my entire muscular system goes into the burning hell of oxygen starvation.

Now as for a total ban in pubs...well, I'm not in complete agreement with that, I do believe that if you want to smoke it is your choice and shouldn't be taken away from you, how ever unhealthy it is. So I can't see why they can't have smokers only pubs. The staff has to be smokers and if you are non-smoking patron...well too bad for you.

bupf,

A jist jinked in front of ye!

Noremac, you are offering no alternatives. Im sure there are many other things that can cause asthma. You make it sound like it is a disease specifically related to smoking. Who knows, maybe youve got dodgy genes? My advise would be to stay away from smokey environments and keep your inhaler close.

Aurthur,you win but im telling you, some people get very bad reactions when near smoke and dust ,etc.

Billy I know how stupid that observation is and how true. There are two factors here one is lifestyle
people want to enjoy their leisure time and do not regard cooking as a pleasure.
The other is that they were never taught in the first place.
Oh then of course their is just plain laziness.
I enjoy cooking and growing my own food as far as possible. It is so soul destroying to cook for people who will invariably say "kin we no get a judas (carryoot) pal"

bumf #104 by your reckoning every single smoker will get cancer, including you and me?